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Muzzled Scientists
Topic Started: Dec 27 2015, 05:21 PM (817 Views)
campy
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David
Dec 28 2015, 02:37 PM
Pay attention Campy. The above post.....I acknowledge it wasn't Darcie. You got me there. Very few things I do are dead serious. Check out my blog, Dogs And Avocados.
You are dead serious when you post to me David. Your game is to degrade.

It's so obvious.

I challenged Margrace not you and not Darcie. You should have stayed out of it. You didn't have to come in with both guns blazing did you?

The statement made is what I challenged because I think it is woefully inaccurate.

Quote:
 
Your man-love for Harper is clouding your mind. Actually, I am known for my humor.


Sure you are. Try a different approach if you want to convince me.

Edited by campy, Dec 28 2015, 02:47 PM.
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Delphi51
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The fact that there is no apparent change as the muzzling ended indicates that it was never necessary. And that it never really mattered.
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David
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I don't care anything about convincing you Campy. Enjoy the rest of your holiday. I'm sure there will be many endless circular arguments in which we can partake in 2016. Enjoyed it.
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campy
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Delphi51
Dec 28 2015, 02:50 PM
The fact that there is no apparent change as the muzzling ended indicates that it was never necessary. And that it never really mattered.
Absolutely. It never mattered but it became a political wedge tool.

That's the point.
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campy
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David
Dec 28 2015, 02:52 PM
I don't care anything about convincing you Campy. Enjoy the rest of your holiday. I'm sure there will be many endless circular arguments in which we can partake in 2016. Enjoyed it.
Well I don't enjoy it David. Not one bit.



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wildie
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Darcie
Dec 28 2015, 08:35 AM
wildie
Dec 28 2015, 04:52 AM
If you accept the Queens silver, the Queen owns the fruit of your labour. This is usual in all cases of employment.
Bell Canada owned everything that I invented while in their employ.
In the employ of the government the taxpayer owns the rights.
We are not talking about inventions here, we are talking about sharing of findings, first between scientists who are doing similar research so they can benefit from each other and advance at a faster rate.

Then we are talking about sharing information about your work and your findings.

The government is not a corporation, it does not pay us, we give them money to distribute and we (amongst other things) pay the scientists.

The government does not own the scientists, they are just guardians of our money and we pay the scientists.
The only reason that scientists are able to spend time researching is because they are drawing wages that are available from taxation. As a taxpayer, I demand that if there is monetary value in the fruits of their labour that I should receive some sort of value for my contribution. If I do not, I will vote for someone else that will look after my interests.
Just to give away the results of research to company's like Monsanto and allow them to profit from taxpayers investment is dead wrong.
Results of research must be kept secret until patents have been established and then if the research results have monetary results these can then be sold off to the highest bidder.
Anything that is discovered or developed must benefit Canadian people, and not be visited upon large international business at the whim of an individual who may wish to curry favour for his own aggrandizement!
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campy
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And. A scientist can cripple an industry by going to the press and giving information that should be kept secret till properly vetted. It could be just his personal opinion.

The salmon industry and fish farms come to mind.

The cattle industry and foot and mouth disease is another.

The chicken industry and the flu virus is one more.
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Darcie
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wildie
Dec 28 2015, 04:42 PM
Darcie
Dec 28 2015, 08:35 AM

Quoting limited to 2 levels deep
The only reason that scientists are able to spend time researching is because they are drawing wages that are available from taxation. As a taxpayer, I demand that if there is monetary value in the fruits of their labour that I should receive some sort of value for my contribution. If I do not, I will vote for someone else that will look after my interests.
Just to give away the results of research to company's like Monsanto and allow them to profit from taxpayers investment is dead wrong.
Results of research must be kept secret until patents have been established and then if the research results have monetary results these can then be sold off to the highest bidder.
Anything that is discovered or developed must benefit Canadian people, and not be visited upon large international business at the whim of an individual who may wish to curry favour for his own aggrandizement!
Findings are published, so much for secrecy.

What I am talking about is sharing the process, if you were working on a telephone installation in a large building and you ran into a huge problem, you would want the ability to discuss this with others to solve the problem would you not?

You probably would have coworkers in your own milieu to do this with. In research, especially in Canada, as a researcher you are probably the only one in your own milieu or university doing a particular research, you have no one else to talk to about solutions. You have to have the ability to talk to other scientists doing similar work in other universities.

If a government scientist's findings are that my food supply is contaminated and that the current government is not honest or ethical and hides that fact, it is imperative that the said scientist have the ability to communicate this information.

What I am reading in your post is that you trust the politician more than the scientist, which is a huge surprise to me as you have always said you mistrust them.

The politician has a lot to lose, donations to his party to go get himself reelected, the scientist is like you and I, he needs a job and you are saying that in order to keep his job he should hide the fact that we can all get sick. If you can let a population get sick just to keep your job then there is something wrong with your ethics.

If a government is honest they will have no problem letting the truth come out as it is their responsibility to deal with it.

If they are irresponsible they will be secretive and want information hidden so that they do not have to do the job they were elected to do.

Secrets have a way of coming back and biting you, the CPC found out about that one.

I do not trust politicians, there are degrees of mistrust, the one who is secretive I trust less than the one who is open.

That is the only way we have of maintaining democracy.
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campy
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Quote:
 
What I am talking about is sharing the process, if you were working on a telephone installation in a large building and you ran into a huge problem, you would want the ability to discuss this with others to solve the problem would you not?



You will have to show me where that was not permitted. There was nothing to stop workers ftom sharing information with one another. They were not lone wolves working independently.

Where did you get that from?

One more time.

Sharing with the MEDIA is different than sharing with other scientists and publishing scientific papers.

Edited by campy, Dec 29 2015, 05:25 AM.
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friendshipgal
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Guess everyone wants their own Trudashians
campy
Dec 29 2015, 02:38 AM
Quote:
 
What I am talking about is sharing the process, if you were working on a telephone installation in a large building and you ran into a huge problem, you would want the ability to discuss this with others to solve the problem would you not?

You will have to show me where that was not permitted. There was nothing to stop workers ftom sharing information with one another. They were not lone wolves working independently.

Where did you get that from?

One more time.

Sharing with the MEDIA is different than sharing with other scientists and publishing scientific papers.
None of this is relevant to the subject of 'muzzling scientists', indeed it is not as bad as the liberals would have us believe. Neither is it anything to do with the gov’t being honest, it’s about not allowing gov’t employees to talk freely to the media or go public with gov’t information and is not as bad as is made out to be. It’s also about employees who are supposed to be impartial and not undermining their employer and the working relationships.

The left just used this issue hyping it up as a means to undermine a gov’t with which they disagreed. From the gov’t.
http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/blog/statement-from-mp-greg-rickford

Talking about muzzling, guess I was right, you are no longer allowed to post in U.S. politics... wonder if the people baiting and trolling you are still allowed to do so.
Edited by friendshipgal, Dec 30 2015, 11:46 AM.
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friendshipgal
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Guess everyone wants their own Trudashians
Delphi51
Dec 28 2015, 02:50 PM
The fact that there is no apparent change as the muzzling ended indicates that it was never necessary. And that it never really mattered.
Right on.. it was just the left wing narrative...
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campy
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Quote:
 
Harper was anti information and education

.Back to my question. About what was posted.


Anyone? Instead of childish schoolyard name calling?

From the link provided.
Quote:
 

Our government has made record investments in science. As such, Canada is ranked number one in the G-7 for our support for research and development in our colleges, universities and other institutes.


Gotta love it. Just gotta love it.

Edited by campy, Dec 30 2015, 01:53 PM.
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wildie
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Darcie
Dec 29 2015, 02:27 AM
wildie
Dec 28 2015, 04:42 PM

Quoting limited to 2 levels deep
Findings are published, so much for secrecy.

What I am talking about is sharing the process, if you were working on a telephone installation in a large building and you ran into a huge problem, you would want the ability to discuss this with others to solve the problem would you not?

You probably would have coworkers in your own milieu to do this with. In research, especially in Canada, as a researcher you are probably the only one in your own milieu or university doing a particular research, you have no one else to talk to about solutions. You have to have the ability to talk to other scientists doing similar work in other universities.

If a government scientist's findings are that my food supply is contaminated and that the current government is not honest or ethical and hides that fact, it is imperative that the said scientist have the ability to communicate this information.

What I am reading in your post is that you trust the politician more than the scientist, which is a huge surprise to me as you have always said you mistrust them.

The politician has a lot to lose, donations to his party to go get himself reelected, the scientist is like you and I, he needs a job and you are saying that in order to keep his job he should hide the fact that we can all get sick. If you can let a population get sick just to keep your job then there is something wrong with your ethics.

If a government is honest they will have no problem letting the truth come out as it is their responsibility to deal with it.

If they are irresponsible they will be secretive and want information hidden so that they do not have to do the job they were elected to do.

Secrets have a way of coming back and biting you, the CPC found out about that one.

I do not trust politicians, there are degrees of mistrust, the one who is secretive I trust less than the one who is open.

That is the only way we have of maintaining democracy.
I appreciate what you say about exchanging information with our peers, and I don't have a great deal of confidence in our politicians, as you say. True enough!
However, allowing scientists unfettered dissemination of the taxpayers property must be controlled until ownership is legally established under copy-right law.
Before a scientist divulges info to a peer, its imperative he has the permission to do so by the owner of the info. Namely we the Canadian taxpayers.
We elect people to give that permission, and I do worry about them doing what they are obligated to do, but until we invent a better way that our interests are monitored, we are stuck with what we have.
Scientists are independent by nature and do not take kindly to being regulated. Thus the squealing and squalling. In this country they are free to quit working for we taxpayers and move on to other employment. But, by accepting employment from the taxpayers they will lose a measure of independence.
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campy
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Wildie. I don't think the scientists complained much about the restriction and rule.

The opposition parties made political hay out of it.

That was the reason for my post.

I haven't seen any revelations about what scientific fact was suppressed and released since the government was changed.

Much ado about nothing. But it worked.
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