A huge Glug, Glug, Glug

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A huge Glug, Glug, Glug; frozen roof stack
Topic Started: Mar 9 2016, 04:46 AM (517 Views)
Olive Oil	Mar 9 2016, 04:46 AM Post #1
Gold Star Member Posts: 4,747 Group: Member Member #785 Joined: June 10, 2010	Every time I flush the toilet, there is a loud thumping glug type sound in my shower/bath tub. It started a few weeks ago and is now very loud and rather disconcerting. If I run hot water in the tub, it stops for a few hours. I'm quite certain it is an ice filled stack as my dd is having the same issue in her house. One remedy is to climb on the roof and pour boiling water down the vent but that's not going to happen. I wonder why this only happened this year and not others when it's been much colder. Another reason why Spring has to come soon!



agate	Mar 9 2016, 05:00 AM Post #2
Posts: 21,864 Group: Administration Member #203 Joined: February 2, 2006	Sure hope it really warms up over there soon. It won't cause any damage will it?



Olive Oil	Mar 9 2016, 07:09 AM Post #3
Gold Star Member Posts: 4,747 Group: Member Member #785 Joined: June 10, 2010	agate Mar 9 2016, 05:00 AM Sure hope it really warms up over there soon. It won't cause any damage will it? I think the danger sign is sewer gas. I haven't smelled that yet (thank goodness). I'm concerned that this has never happened before in the 40 plus years I've lived in this house. It makes me uneasy that something else may be going on.



Trotsky	Mar 9 2016, 07:13 AM Post #4
Big City Boy Posts: 38,319 Group: Member Member #79 Joined: September 8, 2005	Frozen Stack?? My God, we are at 70 degrees. We walked on the shady side of the street because we were too warm after a big shop at ALDI's. (Got a nice 10 pound ham butt for Easter.) If it warms up as expected tomorrow we will probably be using the air conditioner.



Dialtone	Mar 9 2016, 08:23 AM Post #5
Gold Star Member Posts: 7,190 Group: Member Member #721 Joined: April 1, 2010	The sewer stack usually freezes due to warm moist air passing through the unheated roof attic to the outside. In older homes, the stack can be the same diameter all the way from the roof to the basement, and when the ice block melts, it can slide down inside and crash into the base pipe elbow, sometimes causing damage that can be expensive to fix. In newer homes, the stack narrows inside the house so a block can't slide all the way down. Most times, you just have to wait for the weather to warm, unless you want to spend some money that might or might not fix the issue in future. Here's some info. https://www.ag.ndsu.edu/news/newsreleases/2014/oct-20-2014/now-is-time-to-protect-sewer-vents-from-freezing



Delphi51	Mar 9 2016, 08:38 AM Post #6
Member title Posts: 13,967 Group: Administration Member #441 Joined: October 10, 2006	Interesting link, DT. I never thought of insulating the pipe passing through the attic. We've had the vent clogged with snow a few times. I can't even check it now because the metal roof is treacherous in winter.



Dialtone	Mar 9 2016, 09:03 AM Post #7
Gold Star Member Posts: 7,190 Group: Member Member #721 Joined: April 1, 2010	On our acreage, ours used to freeze just about every winter. I just made sure the traps were kept full, and waited for a chinook to blow through. One thing many home owners forget is the floor drain trap, it can evaporate or be sucked dry by wind or a blocked vent. I fill ours every month, part of my home routine along with testing the Carbon Monoxide detector, sump pump water alarm, and smoke alarms.



Kahu	Mar 9 2016, 12:20 PM Post #8
Posts: 31,109 Group: Administration Member #150 Joined: December 14, 2005	Dialtone Mar 9 2016, 09:03 AM On our acreage, ours used to freeze just about every winter. I just made sure the traps were kept full, and waited for a chinook to blow through. One thing many home owners forget is the floor drain trap, it can evaporate or be sucked dry by wind or a blocked vent. I fill ours every month, part of my home routine along with testing the Carbon Monoxide detector, sump pump water alarm, and smoke alarms. Is the 'sewer stack' you're talking about the terminal vent which aerates the domestic line connected to the sewer? Is having a floor drain trap a requirement for Canadian systems? I'm somewhat confused. We have gulley traps (U bends) below ground on domestic drainage points and as part of the WC. I used to work in the local council drainage department in my university breaks ... surveying and drawing drainage plans of houses in new suburbs on 40 foot sheets by hand ... pre CAD days! Where does the CO come from? Edited by Kahu, Mar 9 2016, 12:22 PM.



Dialtone	Mar 9 2016, 03:57 PM Post #9
Gold Star Member Posts: 7,190 Group: Member Member #721 Joined: April 1, 2010	Hi Kahu, I have attached a picture of the typical Canadian house plumbing system. You can see the "stack" going through the roof which vents sewer gas and equalizes the pressure so everything flows downhill into the municipal sewer line. In acreages, it goes into a septic tank. The stack goes to the roof through the attic which is uninsulated in the majority of homes. On top of the ceilings we usually have at least R40 insulation, so there is no heat in the attic during winter. We have some pretty serious cold winters up here, I've seen continuous weeks of -40C, so any moist air that comes up the stack is just about instantly frozen to the sides, in these conditions it builds up and eventually freezes solid. The floor drain in a lot of houses is a separate drain on the cement floor designed to drain water in the event of overflow of some appliance or burst hot water tank etc. It has a trap that many times will dry out due to non-use or suction by wind or other forces, and you can tell by the sewer smell that will escape up the dry trap. Carbon Monoxide detectors are recommended in our houses since a lot of us (especially in Alberta) have natural gas furnaces, water heaters, and fireplaces. Our modern houses are so air tight, that if the supply of fresh air is blocked for some reason, you can get a back flow of exhaust fumes which can be deadly. Attached to this post: House_plumbing_typical.jpg (76.76 KB)



Olive Oil	Mar 9 2016, 03:58 PM Post #10
Gold Star Member Posts: 4,747 Group: Member Member #785 Joined: June 10, 2010	Thanks for the information DT. I see that Home Depot.ca sell the sleeves for l9.99. I wonder if it can be installed from the roof. Is the vent hole on roofs big enough that the sleeve can be slid down to hug the pipe? Yikes, I have never dumped water in the basement drain hole. There is only one in my basement. Maybe a faint bad smell at times downstairs is related to a dry trap. . Edited by Olive Oil, Mar 9 2016, 04:02 PM.



Dialtone	Mar 9 2016, 04:01 PM Post #11
Gold Star Member Posts: 7,190 Group: Member Member #721 Joined: April 1, 2010	My pleasure OO. !!



FuzzyO	Mar 9 2016, 04:15 PM Post #12
Posts: 16,968 Group: Administration Member #710 Joined: March 30, 2010	In Ontario CO detectors are mandatory, as of a year or two ago.



Kahu	Mar 9 2016, 05:05 PM Post #13
Posts: 31,109 Group: Administration Member #150 Joined: December 14, 2005	Dialtone Mar 9 2016, 03:57 PM Hi Kahu, I have attached a picture of the typical Canadian house plumbing system. You can see the "stack" going through the roof which vents sewer gas and equalizes the pressure so everything flows downhill into the municipal sewer line. In acreages, it goes into a septic tank. The stack goes to the roof through the attic which is uninsulated in the majority of homes. On top of the ceilings we usually have at least R40 insulation, so there is no heat in the attic during winter. We have some pretty serious cold winters up here, I've seen continuous weeks of -40C, so any moist air that comes up the stack is just about instantly frozen to the sides, in these conditions it builds up and eventually freezes solid. The floor drain in a lot of houses is a separate drain on the cement floor designed to drain water in the event of overflow of some appliance or burst hot water tank etc. It has a trap that many times will dry out due to non-use or suction by wind or other forces, and you can tell by the sewer smell that will escape up the dry trap. Carbon Monoxide detectors are recommended in our houses since a lot of us (especially in Alberta) have natural gas furnaces, water heaters, and fireplaces. Our modern houses are so air tight, that if the supply of fresh air is blocked for some reason, you can get a back flow of exhaust fumes which can be deadly. Thanks for that info D/T. NZ and Australia have coordinated Building, Plumbing and Drainage Regulations due to the cross Tasman flow flow of labour. We didn't when I had my short stint in the building industry - really only got the job because my father was a drainage engineer in the local council. I can't find a similar plan as you've posted but the basic systems seem to be quite similar. The terms are different though eg the stack becomes a terminal vent (tv), gulley trap (gt) inspection pipe (ip) etc Floor drains are now becoming more evident especially in new apartment buildings, but not in single level dwellings. There are regional differences allowed for in the regulations particularly in relation to seismic construction affecting the eastern coast of Australia and all of NZ. Most NZ houses are built on timber foundations above ground ... and in some areas timber foundations are pile driven down to about 30m which is for seismic construction safety. There is now also considerably more cross bracing required now too. Our houses certainly aren't as air tight as yours although we are paying more attention to insulation and solar energy these days. NZ-Australia Regulations Edited by Kahu, Mar 9 2016, 05:08 PM.



Trotsky	Mar 10 2016, 01:00 AM Post #14
Big City Boy Posts: 38,319 Group: Member Member #79 Joined: September 8, 2005	I am surprised that vent stacks would freeze so readily even in the coldest climes because they are metal, usually cast iron in old homes (my experience in my birth home and even in this 50 story tower.) And though cast iron isn't the BEST metal for heat conduction it is quite good. Thus I would think that enough heat from the innards of the house would conduct upwards to keep the stacks above the freezing point. Certainly insulating the stack, with outside wrapping, through an unheated attic and, if possible, even above the roof should keep it warm enough from this conducted heat. For this reason probably a poor heat conducting PVC stack would be a bad idea and a copper stack a terrific idea. I think the problem with bad vent stacks and thus sucked dry traps is more along the lines of methane intrusion (sewer gas) rather than carbon monoxide although CO is a problem with a tightly sealed house that prevents combustion gases from exiting the chimney properly. I laugh at the idiots who seal their windows with ugly plastic sheeting every winter to save a nickel a month, I make the joke that the fart you blow in November, you will still smell in February. Help me out here: A woman died beneath me due, apparently, in suspicious circumstances more than a year ago. The police sealed her apartment and there might be an issue with her estate: NO ENTRY UNDER POLICE ORDER. From my past experience, within 2 weeks all the traps in her apartment will have gone dry. Our vent stacks are about 8 inches ID cast iron pipe. Can I assume that it is most likely that any gases making their way up 150 feet from the street will continue to be drawn up the 500 foot stack to the roof rather than filling her apartment with explosive methane and blowing me to my unjust rewards. I often smell "stuff" especially if I allow my apaprtment to go into a relative vacuum, but I don't think it is sewer gas but mostly my overstrong sense of smell. I don't want to make a big fuss, ESPECIALLY if it involves the police, if it is for nothing. What is the practical level of danger to me? I have 6 inches of reinforced concrete between us. Edited by Trotsky, Mar 10 2016, 07:53 AM.



Dialtone	Mar 10 2016, 04:29 AM Post #15
Gold Star Member Posts: 7,190 Group: Member Member #721 Joined: April 1, 2010	If the apartment is locked and sealed, there is little to no air flow to draw any gases into the apartment. What sewer gas that does make it way in, wouldn't be concentrated enough to be explosive, just a bit smelly. If the police are visiting the apartment, they would notice any gas, especially if it was concentrated. Don't worry, you should be on the Earthly plain for a while yet. laugh123



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