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Anyone here ever read Tolkien?; Tolkien discussion.
Topic Started: Oct 31 2004, 03:57:02 AM (2,520 Views)
Nick22
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what he would have done with hinmself, of course is the question. his life had not been a happy one.. he had developed a split personality, two different halves. His whole life had been wrapped in the ring..
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Saft
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I think he would have bee lost and unsure of himself. He would have felt free for the first time in decades but would have been unsure as of how to handle it.
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Nick22
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more like centuries...I like to think he might have tagged along with Frodo and Sam...even though sam would never have fully trusted him after his deceit in trying to have Shelob kill them..and the little matter of biting off Frodo's finger. frodo I think would be more willing to forgive Gollum, although after they got home, I wonder if the Shire-people would have accepted Gollum..
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Saft
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Perhaps not, after all they never really got over the way that Gandalf changed Mr.Baggins who was respectable before the wizard came along to incite him on another adventure.

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Nick22
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they never understood Gandalf... there were very rural, interested in having things stay the same, the epitome of conversatism..
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Saft
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Speaking of Gandalf, does anyone else know his other names?

I do, just to be clear.
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Nick22
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Olorin was his name in valinor. Thrukin was his Dwarven name Mithrandir was his elven name..
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Saft
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Yes, excellent Nick.:)
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Nick22
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I'm a huge LOTR nerd. can you name the other Istari? :)
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Saft
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Which other Istari?

I know Saruman or Curumo as he is known and Ragdagast or Aiwendil.
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Nick22
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and the blue wizards? :)
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Kor
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The reason for Legolas feeling the stirrings of the urge to go west is he's descended, I think, from the 3rd group that the Valar invited to go to the west, this was, I think, during the age of the 2 trees. I forgot all their names. 1 group ignored the Valar's invitation and became dark elves since they never saw the light of the Valar nor of the 2 trees. The first group went with no hesitation and went right to Valinor, they only returned from Valinor briefly at the end of the first age during the battle when the Valar came to battle Melkor and his forces.

The 2nd group, that Galadriel is from or was a part of (she is very ancient) went to valinor second. The Teleri I think they are called, since the Tarried, took the longest. Some never went to Valinor, but settled in varous places, including Green wood the great, that later became named Mirkwood. It is said that the urge to go west sleeps in the teleri and only needs to be awakened, even in their children.

The only elves who went to Valinor and came back were 2 groups. The original first group who went to Valinor, only returned to middle earth, with the Valar, during the war at the end of the first age.

The second group had some who returned after the 2 trees were poisoned. Feanor had made the Silmarils that had the light of the 2 trees, but when Ungiliot or somesuch name, a maia or valar type who was in the form of a giant spider poisoned the 2 trees Feanor refused to give the Valar his Silmarils so the trees could be saved. Melkor stole the Silmarils and killed Feanor's Father. Feanor & his sons swore an oath and many of their kinsfolk did also and went to middle earth. Some elves tried to stop them and what is known as the kinslaying happend, with one of the Valar laying a doom upon those people. Though it Tolkein did say later I think that Galadriel and her people had no part in the kinslaying they did go to middle earth. Feanor and his sons never were able to get the Silmarils since I think they were no longer rightfully theirs due to their oath.

Those 2 times are the only times elves came from the west. When the istari came during the 3rd age you can guess how surprised the elves were to see a ship coming form the west.
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Saft
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Blue wizards were Alatar and Palando?

And thank you Kor for explaining.:)
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Nick22
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Yep.. The blue Wizards were only briefly mentioned..
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Saft
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Oh, did I get that correct? I know they had alternative names but I don't know them.

Off topic but I hear music....
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Nick22
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which Istari came first?
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Saft
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It's difficult for me to say this but I'm not sure which Istari came first. I think it may have been Ragadast?
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Malte279
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I'm a historian. I MUST be like that!

Quote:
 
Given that the Valar were able to cure Biblo Frodo and SAm, its entirely possible they could have cured Gollum as well.
Having never read the Silmarilon myself I know very little about the Valar. Do they care enough about individual beings to intervene like that at the end of the third age? In any case Gollum would have had to be brought to Valinor, or so it seems, if that was the only way Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam could be utterly cured, if cured they were.
There are however some very crucial differences about the exposure of Gollum on the one and Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam on the other hand. First of all Gollum had it for about 500 years or so, while even Bilbo had it for only about 60 years and rarely used it. Frodo had it for about 17 or 18 years I think and Sam for less than a day or so. Gollum obtained it through murder while Bilbo in particular acted with pity when he found the ring and could have slain Gollum (in what one could have almost labeled as self defense), Frodo inherited it, and Sam only took temporary care of it. Gandalf is very specific in stating that the way Bilbo obtained the ring mattered a lot in how little damage it dealt him.
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Saft
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Would the Valar hold a council to decide the acceptance of Gollum if that was the case?

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Saft
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Oh, Nick I do not like not knowing. Who was the first Istari to come first to Middle Earth?
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